in utah they ran across the city government that raised taxes. tax increases are like certain social diseases. they stay with you forever. you cannot run for congress or senate having raised taxes. i would really encouraging people to be made and -- to behave and politicians to also be a and not pick up and s t d, tax transmits a political error that will haunt you in the future even when you have reform and are better. >> thank you very much for being here. >> we are back with an russell berman steven sloan after talking with grover norquist. the author of the pledge that many know as the anti-tax pledge, we just heard a recipe from mr. norquist for a stalemate that is coming up. they are all putting their markers down. what are you hearing about what is going to happen over the next couple of weeks? >> it seems like there is a little bit of room on the middle on taxes. we just are talking about tax policy. the president has said he wants the wealthy to pay more. john boehner has said they will not increase tax rates on anyone. they will put rev